1 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:08,960 on this episode of skeptic Oh a look 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:12,450 back on 200 episodes so there's your 3 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:15,030 show and you're up against all of this 4 00:00:20,390 --> 00:00:17,490 skeptic shows there's skeptic I to the 5 00:00:22,130 --> 00:00:20,400 universe skeptic ality kept I'd not 6 00:00:24,529 --> 00:00:22,140 really Tim those are like two different 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:24,539 universes I mean one of the things that 8 00:00:29,810 --> 00:00:26,970 skeptic of did again because I came in 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:29,820 this from the outside I saw naturally 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:32,130 that these two things fit together if 11 00:00:36,650 --> 00:00:34,530 the skeptics guide to the universe and 12 00:00:39,670 --> 00:00:36,660 skeptic ality and sceptile and all the 13 00:00:41,690 --> 00:00:39,680 rest of them are talking about 14 00:00:45,590 --> 00:00:41,700 parapsychology all being in a 15 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:45,600 disparaging way then naturally they're 16 00:00:50,150 --> 00:00:47,850 going to want to dialogue with those 17 00:00:52,310 --> 00:00:50,160 researchers and I was naive enough to 18 00:00:54,830 --> 00:00:52,320 think that they actually did what I 19 00:00:57,650 --> 00:00:54,840 found is that they don't but they really 20 00:00:59,540 --> 00:00:57,660 want is to be left in there a little 21 00:01:01,910 --> 00:00:59,550 island over there in their little world 22 00:01:15,870 --> 00:01:01,920 and talk about these things among 23 00:01:19,630 --> 00:01:18,010 welcome to skeptic oh where we explore 24 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:19,640 controversial science with leading 25 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:22,310 researchers thinkers and their critics 26 00:01:26,410 --> 00:01:24,770 i'm your host Alex Karras and today on 27 00:01:28,410 --> 00:01:26,420 skeptical we're going to mix things up a 28 00:01:31,450 --> 00:01:28,420 little bit and have one of those 29 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:31,460 retrospective shows it is episode 200 30 00:01:36,730 --> 00:01:33,890 after all and maybe a look back is 31 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:36,740 worthwhile so my good friend Tim and 32 00:01:40,630 --> 00:01:38,210 that is his real name but we won't use 33 00:01:44,050 --> 00:01:40,640 his last name as I'll explain at the 34 00:01:46,300 --> 00:01:44,060 conclusion of this show has joined me to 35 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:46,310 talk about the show there's not a lot of 36 00:01:50,950 --> 00:01:48,410 introduction required let's jump right 37 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:50,960 into this look back at 200 episodes of 38 00:01:56,230 --> 00:01:53,210 skeptical so as I just mentioned today 39 00:01:59,140 --> 00:01:56,240 we have a special episode of skeptic oh 40 00:02:02,969 --> 00:01:59,150 I have with me and I'll soon be turning 41 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:02,979 the mic over to Tim who is a longtime 42 00:02:08,530 --> 00:02:06,050 friend of mine and a longtime friend of 43 00:02:11,530 --> 00:02:08,540 skeptical a guy who has literally 44 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:11,540 listened to I think every show that I've 45 00:02:15,070 --> 00:02:13,310 produced and what makes this 46 00:02:17,350 --> 00:02:15,080 particularly interesting other than that 47 00:02:20,380 --> 00:02:17,360 I have this close personal relationship 48 00:02:23,650 --> 00:02:20,390 with tim is that tim is a skeptic and he 49 00:02:26,290 --> 00:02:23,660 remains a skeptic and i love the fact 50 00:02:28,420 --> 00:02:26,300 that he's stayed with the show stayed 51 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:28,430 with the material has battled it out and 52 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:32,090 has remained a skeptic so I think when 53 00:02:37,420 --> 00:02:34,610 Tim proposed the idea of doing an 54 00:02:39,759 --> 00:02:37,430 interview about skeptical something I've 55 00:02:42,310 --> 00:02:39,769 been resistant to do the more I thought 56 00:02:45,820 --> 00:02:42,320 about it the more I thought what more 57 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:45,830 perfect person to conduct that interview 58 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:49,010 than someone who's deeply engaged in the 59 00:02:55,900 --> 00:02:52,970 show and remains opposed to a lot of the 60 00:02:58,990 --> 00:02:55,910 ideas and that true spirit of sorting 61 00:03:02,949 --> 00:02:59,000 out the data and skepticism I can now 62 00:03:04,780 --> 00:03:02,959 turn the mic over to Tim well thank you 63 00:03:06,699 --> 00:03:04,790 very much honestly for for agreeing to 64 00:03:08,350 --> 00:03:06,709 do this you and I had a a bit of a back 65 00:03:10,750 --> 00:03:08,360 and forth on whether or not you thought 66 00:03:13,479 --> 00:03:10,760 this was a this was a good idea but I do 67 00:03:15,460 --> 00:03:13,489 want to do this as primarily my mind as 68 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:15,470 a as a celebration of the fact that 69 00:03:22,390 --> 00:03:18,890 you've reached this milestone of 200 70 00:03:25,050 --> 00:03:22,400 shows so if you look back at skeptic oh 71 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:25,060 it started January seventh two 72 00:03:29,850 --> 00:03:27,370 thousand seven and you introduced it 73 00:03:34,530 --> 00:03:29,860 with a you know how controversial 74 00:03:37,290 --> 00:03:34,540 science is debated and so my ideas for 75 00:03:39,350 --> 00:03:37,300 the for the next next few minutes is to 76 00:03:42,479 --> 00:03:39,360 talk about talk about the show and 77 00:03:44,580 --> 00:03:42,489 hopefully uh I was hoping we would stay 78 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:44,590 out of the the topics of the show we may 79 00:03:52,470 --> 00:03:48,330 we may bleed into that but I'm curious 80 00:03:54,059 --> 00:03:52,480 to get started with how did the show get 81 00:03:56,100 --> 00:03:54,069 started take take you take us back to 82 00:03:58,800 --> 00:03:56,110 two thousand seven well you know I 83 00:04:01,470 --> 00:03:58,810 started out as a listener I've always 84 00:04:04,949 --> 00:04:01,480 been very interested in not only these 85 00:04:07,620 --> 00:04:04,959 topics but in general in the idea that I 86 00:04:10,380 --> 00:04:07,630 can learn i can get better i can improve 87 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:10,390 by absorbing the knowledge from other 88 00:04:15,590 --> 00:04:12,370 people so i was a listener and i became 89 00:04:18,810 --> 00:04:15,600 quite interested in the whole idea of 90 00:04:21,330 --> 00:04:18,820 parapsychology and kind of paranormal 91 00:04:23,909 --> 00:04:21,340 phenomena just did a very casual level 92 00:04:26,310 --> 00:04:23,919 like anyone who watches TV that 93 00:04:29,370 --> 00:04:26,320 eventually led me to dr. Rupert 94 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:29,380 sheldrick who is guest number one of 95 00:04:34,170 --> 00:04:31,570 skeptical and the conversation i had 96 00:04:36,390 --> 00:04:34,180 with Rupert was along the lines of hey 97 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:36,400 this is interesting why isn't anyone 98 00:04:43,250 --> 00:04:40,410 talking about this in a serious way 99 00:04:45,510 --> 00:04:43,260 interviewing these researchers and 100 00:04:48,150 --> 00:04:45,520 analyzing what they have to say versus 101 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:48,160 what people who oppose them have to say 102 00:04:51,810 --> 00:04:50,050 and he said I don't know and I said well 103 00:04:53,700 --> 00:04:51,820 we ought to make that happen and I'm 104 00:04:56,430 --> 00:04:53,710 willing to fund this you know let's hire 105 00:04:58,860 --> 00:04:56,440 somebody to go do this show and that was 106 00:05:02,100 --> 00:04:58,870 really out started is I was going to 107 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:02,110 fund a show because I'm not a producer 108 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:04,810 of any sort and I'm not a radio guy or 109 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:07,330 anything like that well we went down 110 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:10,050 that path and I asked Rupert for 111 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:12,490 suggestions of who might be good for the 112 00:05:17,790 --> 00:05:15,090 show and and that kind of played out and 113 00:05:20,159 --> 00:05:17,800 it's like so many things you hear about 114 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:20,169 you know there wasn't anybody so I 115 00:05:25,469 --> 00:05:23,530 stepped in and to do it and after a 116 00:05:28,230 --> 00:05:25,479 couple shows really i was pretty well 117 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:28,240 cooked on doing it and I was hooked on 118 00:05:34,050 --> 00:05:31,210 the fact that if I tried to subcontract 119 00:05:36,089 --> 00:05:34,060 this out it wouldn't really fit what I 120 00:05:37,810 --> 00:05:36,099 was looking for I wouldn't get the 121 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:37,820 questions that I want 122 00:05:41,830 --> 00:05:40,250 asked and he answered those wouldn't 123 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:41,840 come on the table because everyone does 124 00:05:44,650 --> 00:05:43,250 bring a different perspective to these 125 00:05:47,110 --> 00:05:44,660 things so that's really how it all 126 00:05:48,700 --> 00:05:47,120 started did you get down did you get 127 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:48,710 very far down the path of looking for 128 00:05:53,980 --> 00:05:50,810 somebody to somebody else that to host 129 00:05:55,780 --> 00:05:53,990 the show yeah i mean he he threw he 130 00:05:58,570 --> 00:05:55,790 threw out a couple names I followed him 131 00:06:01,840 --> 00:05:58,580 up there actually is one guy who 132 00:06:04,330 --> 00:06:01,850 appeared very early on in my interview 133 00:06:07,150 --> 00:06:04,340 with Michael Shermer who we were 134 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:07,160 considering for you know doing the show 135 00:06:12,550 --> 00:06:08,810 and I actually met him here he came down 136 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:12,560 to Del Mar and it wasn't a good fit so I 137 00:06:17,050 --> 00:06:15,050 don't I don't know if I exhausted all 138 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:17,060 possible candidates but yet we went down 139 00:06:20,740 --> 00:06:19,490 that path and what was Rupert's reaction 140 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:20,750 when you said I'm just going to do this 141 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:23,690 myself well I think one of the other you 142 00:06:28,450 --> 00:06:25,310 know kind of little secrets that you 143 00:06:31,510 --> 00:06:28,460 learn when you get into this is I had 144 00:06:35,020 --> 00:06:31,520 this idea of some of these figures who 145 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:35,030 are really I respect tremendously and 146 00:06:38,770 --> 00:06:37,610 their ideas are fantastic the books are 147 00:06:40,930 --> 00:06:38,780 fantastic and their books are 148 00:06:43,630 --> 00:06:40,940 bestsellers and internationally known 149 00:06:45,670 --> 00:06:43,640 but I think in my mind and I think a lot 150 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:45,680 of people's mind you have this idea of 151 00:06:50,710 --> 00:06:49,010 this kind of infrastructure that lies 152 00:06:53,050 --> 00:06:50,720 behind them and that their tentacles 153 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:53,060 reach out and all this and it's not 154 00:06:59,110 --> 00:06:54,650 really the case I mean a lot of times 155 00:07:01,390 --> 00:06:59,120 it's a guy like dr. sheldrick who's has 156 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:01,400 an academic career and has written a 157 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:05,210 book and you know that's it so in terms 158 00:07:08,950 --> 00:07:07,010 of me stepping forward and say hey one 159 00:07:11,020 --> 00:07:08,960 and I do this show he was welcoming it 160 00:07:13,870 --> 00:07:11,030 was like great fine you know let's let's 161 00:07:16,180 --> 00:07:13,880 try it I think he saw it as not a lot to 162 00:07:19,450 --> 00:07:16,190 lose he wasn't putting a lot behind it 163 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:19,460 and another chance to get his ideas out 164 00:07:25,150 --> 00:07:21,650 there which is the other impetus of the 165 00:07:26,860 --> 00:07:25,160 show that really remained sound and true 166 00:07:30,610 --> 00:07:26,870 to this day is that there's a lot of 167 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:30,620 really important thinkers out there who 168 00:07:36,220 --> 00:07:34,310 don't get airtime I think that's really 169 00:07:38,950 --> 00:07:36,230 probably less true now than when I 170 00:07:42,010 --> 00:07:38,960 started because there's been a growth on 171 00:07:44,860 --> 00:07:42,020 the internet of shows like mine or shows 172 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:44,870 in this general topic area that now 173 00:07:49,330 --> 00:07:47,450 cover these topics more thoroughly which 174 00:07:52,409 --> 00:07:49,340 is fantastic I think that's great I'd 175 00:07:56,580 --> 00:07:52,419 love to be obsolete at some point 176 00:08:00,070 --> 00:07:56,590 so six years you've been doing this 177 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:00,080 which is roughly 30 a year basically one 178 00:08:05,350 --> 00:08:02,090 every other week you've kept up very 179 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:05,360 consistent kind of pace so if if we'd 180 00:08:09,610 --> 00:08:06,770 asked you back in two thousand seven 181 00:08:11,740 --> 00:08:09,620 would you would you be doing this six 182 00:08:13,270 --> 00:08:11,750 years later this is kind of like the 183 00:08:15,190 --> 00:08:13,280 question the rolling stones are getting 184 00:08:17,170 --> 00:08:15,200 now as they're getting into their 50th 185 00:08:18,610 --> 00:08:17,180 year everybody's asked him what would 186 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:18,620 they have known that they would be doing 187 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:23,510 it fifty years later but so would what 188 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:26,210 what if you had been told in January 189 00:08:30,430 --> 00:08:28,610 2007 that you'd be doing this six years 190 00:08:32,620 --> 00:08:30,440 later I think you know even the 191 00:08:35,170 --> 00:08:32,630 comparison or the hint of the comparison 192 00:08:37,300 --> 00:08:35,180 of me and skeptic oh with the Rolling 193 00:08:41,050 --> 00:08:37,310 Stones it's something that I have to 194 00:08:42,790 --> 00:08:41,060 that really delivered on my part yeah I 195 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:42,800 have to really tread very carefully 196 00:08:48,010 --> 00:08:45,290 there no well you know what I've said 197 00:08:51,010 --> 00:08:48,020 repeatedly to people and I've had to say 198 00:08:54,190 --> 00:08:51,020 it so that I can remind myself of it and 199 00:08:56,590 --> 00:08:54,200 gain as much humility as I can and 200 00:08:58,990 --> 00:08:56,600 that's that this is my journey you know 201 00:09:01,750 --> 00:08:59,000 this is my little trick this skeptic 202 00:09:04,630 --> 00:09:01,760 Osho and the opportunity to provide this 203 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:04,640 on the internet and itunes and thousands 204 00:09:08,079 --> 00:09:06,410 of people and all that hey man that's 205 00:09:09,670 --> 00:09:08,089 just a little tricks I get to call these 206 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:09,680 people up and talk to them because if I 207 00:09:15,850 --> 00:09:11,330 just call them up dog don't know when it 208 00:09:19,990 --> 00:09:15,860 docked me so the idea of a show and a 209 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:20,000 regular schedule and a continuation of 210 00:09:27,730 --> 00:09:23,450 it or anything like that is just for me 211 00:09:30,730 --> 00:09:27,740 an outgrowth of this desire to talk to 212 00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:30,740 folks and so those are just the that's 213 00:09:34,090 --> 00:09:32,690 just a vehicle that allows me to keep 214 00:09:36,250 --> 00:09:34,100 talking to the people I want to talk 215 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:36,260 about so you know whether I was thinking 216 00:09:40,030 --> 00:09:37,730 about six years or whether I think about 217 00:09:45,370 --> 00:09:40,040 six years in the future or whatever it's 218 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:45,380 just I'm just on this journey yeah the 219 00:09:49,990 --> 00:09:46,970 whole areas are the whole arena 220 00:09:51,790 --> 00:09:50,000 podcasting so you're in the I think I've 221 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:51,800 we've spoken you're in the you're in the 222 00:09:58,269 --> 00:09:55,130 tens of thousands of downloads kind of 223 00:10:00,400 --> 00:09:58,279 kind of field there you're the Evan 224 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:00,410 Alexander's you said on YouTube was in 225 00:10:05,710 --> 00:10:03,290 the hundreds of thousands of views I'm 226 00:10:07,420 --> 00:10:05,720 sure you've thought about monetization 227 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:07,430 it has has that ever really been 228 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:10,490 something you've pursued al no you know 229 00:10:16,030 --> 00:10:13,370 it's interesting both you and I share a 230 00:10:17,259 --> 00:10:16,040 business background you know we were we 231 00:10:18,759 --> 00:10:17,269 started our business career a 232 00:10:21,249 --> 00:10:18,769 professional career together and that's 233 00:10:23,259 --> 00:10:21,259 how we first became the comparative but 234 00:10:26,139 --> 00:10:23,269 I think we've we've also had that 235 00:10:27,639 --> 00:10:26,149 connection to the business world since 236 00:10:29,829 --> 00:10:27,649 then you know as most people who start 237 00:10:33,610 --> 00:10:29,839 down that career path you know what so 238 00:10:35,829 --> 00:10:33,620 there are a lot of business rules or 239 00:10:39,460 --> 00:10:35,839 lessons that I've learned that I think 240 00:10:42,819 --> 00:10:39,470 inform my decisions in skeptical and one 241 00:10:45,119 --> 00:10:42,829 of those is that this idea that do what 242 00:10:48,879 --> 00:10:45,129 you love and the money will follow is 243 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:48,889 really a load of crap I don't think 244 00:10:54,610 --> 00:10:51,290 that's true and I think the way that 245 00:10:57,869 --> 00:10:54,620 applies to podcasting is if I wanted to 246 00:11:01,869 --> 00:10:57,879 apply my time and my mental resources 247 00:11:04,540 --> 00:11:01,879 towards increasing capital I wouldn't do 248 00:11:06,069 --> 00:11:04,550 it by five casting not to say that some 249 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:06,079 people haven't found a way to monetize 250 00:11:10,980 --> 00:11:08,569 it and stuff like that but I don't 251 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:10,990 that's not one that's not my goal and 252 00:11:15,819 --> 00:11:13,610 two I don't think it's a very good way 253 00:11:17,410 --> 00:11:15,829 to make money but maybe I should have 254 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:17,420 started with the second point is it's 255 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:19,490 not my goal it's it's not what this 256 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:21,290 things about you get approached by 257 00:11:26,199 --> 00:11:24,410 advertisers yeah you do but it is there 258 00:11:31,119 --> 00:11:26,209 really any money there I don't see it 259 00:11:33,429 --> 00:11:31,129 you know so right so what so there's 260 00:11:36,369 --> 00:11:33,439 your show there's there's an your year 261 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:36,379 up against all of the skeptic shows 262 00:11:41,439 --> 00:11:39,110 there's the AA really they're not really 263 00:11:45,009 --> 00:11:41,449 disguised the universe skeptic ality 264 00:11:46,420 --> 00:11:45,019 sceptile not really Tim those are it's 265 00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:46,430 like those are like two different 266 00:11:51,220 --> 00:11:48,800 universes I mean one of the things that 267 00:11:53,980 --> 00:11:51,230 skeptic of did again because I came in 268 00:11:57,129 --> 00:11:53,990 this kind of cold from just the outside 269 00:11:59,920 --> 00:11:57,139 was I saw naturally that these two 270 00:12:01,389 --> 00:11:59,930 things fit together you know if the 271 00:12:03,519 --> 00:12:01,399 skeptics guide to the universe and 272 00:12:06,509 --> 00:12:03,529 skeptic ality and sceptile and all the 273 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:06,519 rest of them are talking about 274 00:12:12,460 --> 00:12:08,569 parapsychology all being in a 275 00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:12,470 disparaging way then naturally they're 276 00:12:16,990 --> 00:12:14,720 going to want to dialogue with those 277 00:12:18,990 --> 00:12:17,000 researchers and I was naive enough to 278 00:12:21,210 --> 00:12:19,000 think that they actually did 279 00:12:24,090 --> 00:12:21,220 what I found is that they don't but they 280 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:24,100 really want is to be left in their 281 00:12:28,770 --> 00:12:26,110 little island over there in their little 282 00:12:31,470 --> 00:12:28,780 world and talk about these things among 283 00:12:34,590 --> 00:12:31,480 themselves and i don't know i mean 284 00:12:36,180 --> 00:12:34,600 there's a certain prejudice that i'm 285 00:12:38,190 --> 00:12:36,190 revealing and saying that but i think 286 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:38,200 that i think that's wrong headed i mean 287 00:12:43,860 --> 00:12:40,090 how can you say you really want to have 288 00:12:46,530 --> 00:12:43,870 it you want to engage in an intellectual 289 00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:46,540 kind of free thought critical 290 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:48,160 examination of these things without 291 00:12:52,860 --> 00:12:49,930 looking at the other side it seems silly 292 00:12:56,010 --> 00:12:52,870 yet that is the landscape they really 293 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:56,020 don't want to interact with anyone and 294 00:13:00,600 --> 00:12:58,090 the same over here in the / psychology 295 00:13:02,970 --> 00:13:00,610 community i think for the most part when 296 00:13:05,790 --> 00:13:02,980 i first got involved there was not a lot 297 00:13:08,010 --> 00:13:05,800 of interaction with the skeptics other 298 00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:08,020 than just kind of this throwing stones 299 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:10,360 over there and saying how stupid they 300 00:13:16,410 --> 00:13:13,810 are so I guess I've bridged that a 301 00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:16,420 little bit but then anyone who's been 302 00:13:22,890 --> 00:13:18,240 around the show for a while as you know 303 00:13:25,770 --> 00:13:22,900 that becomes tedious tiresome and worn 304 00:13:29,070 --> 00:13:25,780 out pretty soon too because there's not 305 00:13:31,050 --> 00:13:29,080 a lot of real interaction there with the 306 00:13:32,460 --> 00:13:31,060 hardcore skeptics an atheist they just 307 00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:32,470 kind of have this party line kind of 308 00:13:37,140 --> 00:13:34,300 thing that's hard to penetrate what is 309 00:13:39,510 --> 00:13:37,150 effective is going to I guess the level 310 00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:39,520 two people behind that the the 311 00:13:46,260 --> 00:13:42,880 mainstream researchers in the field who 312 00:13:49,260 --> 00:13:46,270 more or less echo a lot of those same 313 00:13:52,380 --> 00:13:49,270 skeptical materialist atheist kind of 314 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:52,390 worldview things and kind of pulling 315 00:13:57,300 --> 00:13:55,210 them into of this kind of debate and 316 00:13:59,220 --> 00:13:57,310 dialogue i think is fruitful and will 317 00:14:02,040 --> 00:13:59,230 remain fruitful for as long as I want to 318 00:14:05,010 --> 00:14:02,050 do it there's no end of of people that 319 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:05,020 will engage in that dialogue either 320 00:14:10,079 --> 00:14:08,290 knowingly or not knowingly as we've 321 00:14:12,660 --> 00:14:10,089 found in skeptical some people don't 322 00:14:14,610 --> 00:14:12,670 fully realize the dialogue they're 323 00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:14,620 getting into when they get into it they 324 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:17,680 assume you're skeptical and the the 325 00:14:21,210 --> 00:14:18,850 conversation goes with different 326 00:14:22,829 --> 00:14:21,220 directions you've been on skeptics guide 327 00:14:25,110 --> 00:14:22,839 to the universe and they've been on you 328 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:25,120 do you in it sound like like you don't 329 00:14:29,699 --> 00:14:26,770 foresee that happening much in the 330 00:14:32,460 --> 00:14:29,709 future oh I tried I've pursued Steve 331 00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:32,470 novella you know a half dozen times 332 00:14:36,310 --> 00:14:32,880 since 333 00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:36,320 that's so I used to respond although 334 00:14:42,140 --> 00:14:40,110 very slowly to my request he doesn't 335 00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:42,150 respond anymore which has been the case 336 00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:44,160 over and over again with with skeptics 337 00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:46,710 and they lose an argument in their run 338 00:14:51,950 --> 00:14:49,440 away I mean that sounds kind of harsh 339 00:14:54,410 --> 00:14:51,960 but it really is the truth they're just 340 00:14:58,100 --> 00:14:54,420 should be so much more engagement with 341 00:15:00,980 --> 00:14:58,110 these issues in a debate format again I 342 00:15:02,750 --> 00:15:00,990 it really doesn't wash The Skeptical 343 00:15:05,810 --> 00:15:02,760 position at the end of the day it 344 00:15:08,090 --> 00:15:05,820 doesn't hold I mean I'm here I will 345 00:15:12,110 --> 00:15:08,100 engage debate whatever you want to call 346 00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:12,120 it anyone anywhere anytime anyone that 347 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:15,270 is that has any audience or credentials 348 00:15:20,660 --> 00:15:18,330 or kind of certain reputation in this 349 00:15:22,070 --> 00:15:20,670 field I don't know why anyone wouldn't 350 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:22,080 do the same i mean if you think your 351 00:15:27,170 --> 00:15:24,450 ideas hold up you gotta say hey bring it 352 00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:27,180 on you know and so i have gone through 353 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:30,540 the 200 episodes and i have tried i've 354 00:15:37,610 --> 00:15:34,010 done my own completely unscientific 355 00:15:40,970 --> 00:15:37,620 categorization of all the shows and i've 356 00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:40,980 also tried to I try to also count guests 357 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:44,160 so it probably no surprise that that dr. 358 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:46,710 sheldrick has been on the show the most 359 00:15:53,630 --> 00:15:49,650 times I have him down for 47 times 360 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:53,640 Novello I have on for Radford been 361 00:16:00,260 --> 00:15:57,210 Radford three times Jeffrey long three 362 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:00,270 times and then then a bunch of 1 Z 2 z's 363 00:16:05,300 --> 00:16:02,610 the one thing that struck me is when I 364 00:16:07,070 --> 00:16:05,310 was looking at that is it Dean Radin has 365 00:16:11,020 --> 00:16:07,080 only been on the show it was on your 366 00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:11,030 second show yet he's never been on since 367 00:16:17,750 --> 00:16:14,880 and although he is probably a name that 368 00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:17,760 you quote you've probably quoted as 369 00:16:21,860 --> 00:16:20,040 often as Rupert Sheldrake in the course 370 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:21,870 of recording this shows and recording 371 00:16:25,940 --> 00:16:23,610 the interviews what is there a reason 372 00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:25,950 that then Dean Radin happy I guess there 373 00:16:31,370 --> 00:16:28,620 was an email exchange during the global 374 00:16:32,750 --> 00:16:31,380 consciousness project exchange but I 375 00:16:33,770 --> 00:16:32,760 don't think he was actually on the show 376 00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:33,780 again this is there any reason you 377 00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:35,190 haven't been able to get him back on the 378 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:37,860 show wow you've really kind of dug into 379 00:16:41,210 --> 00:16:39,510 this stuff done your research even when 380 00:16:42,860 --> 00:16:41,220 you pulled that global consciousness 381 00:16:44,540 --> 00:16:42,870 reference I was going to mention that 382 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:44,550 and then you came a fan 383 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:46,890 of the show I site what you believe I am 384 00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:48,510 a fan of the show I've listened to all 385 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:51,440 shows that's awesome you know I 386 00:16:57,050 --> 00:16:55,170 interviewed dr. Rayden another time did 387 00:16:59,030 --> 00:16:57,060 a video interview of them I have not 388 00:17:01,130 --> 00:16:59,040 published that it's a few years old I'd 389 00:17:03,470 --> 00:17:01,140 love to get around to publishing it at 390 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:03,480 some point but there really isn't any 391 00:17:07,939 --> 00:17:05,730 other reason why he hasn't been on the 392 00:17:11,030 --> 00:17:07,949 show I have a tremendous amount of 393 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:11,040 respect for Dean Radin I think he's one 394 00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:14,970 of the real Giants if you will in this 395 00:17:20,030 --> 00:17:17,280 field I think his thinking is just 396 00:17:21,799 --> 00:17:20,040 always spot-on when I visit his blog I'm 397 00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:21,809 I'm always blown away sometimes I'm 398 00:17:25,660 --> 00:17:23,370 blown away by reading something going 399 00:17:30,380 --> 00:17:25,670 yeah yeah yeah now I look up and it's 400 00:17:31,820 --> 00:17:30,390 2009 2010 several years ago well that 401 00:17:35,540 --> 00:17:31,830 sounds like a good topic for show to 402 00:17:38,330 --> 00:17:35,550 that 201 you should get them back on the 403 00:17:40,490 --> 00:17:38,340 so my categorization of it is and these 404 00:17:44,740 --> 00:17:40,500 are very rough numbers about a quarter 405 00:17:49,340 --> 00:17:44,750 is of the shows were related to n bees 406 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:49,350 about twenty percent on on psychic and 407 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:52,050 paranormal activities and topics and 408 00:17:59,659 --> 00:17:55,410 then kind of fifteen percent associated 409 00:18:01,130 --> 00:17:59,669 with with skeptics just interviews back 410 00:18:02,990 --> 00:18:01,140 and forth with with skeptics and 411 00:18:06,530 --> 00:18:03,000 believers non-believers kinds of 412 00:18:08,049 --> 00:18:06,540 discussions ten percent on on what I 413 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:08,059 called religion ten percent on 414 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:11,490 consciousness and so forth ten percent 415 00:18:17,330 --> 00:18:15,210 on dogs does that is is that how you 416 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:17,340 would have characterized the split of 417 00:18:22,549 --> 00:18:19,410 the show is it does surprise you that n 418 00:18:24,409 --> 00:18:22,559 DS is is that prominent almost almost 419 00:18:28,010 --> 00:18:24,419 one in four kind of twenty five percent 420 00:18:29,530 --> 00:18:28,020 of the content of the show well again 421 00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:29,540 it's interesting when you break it down 422 00:18:33,290 --> 00:18:31,440 statistically but then again maybe it's 423 00:18:35,540 --> 00:18:33,300 not so interesting I don't know what I 424 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:35,550 really would pull from from those stats 425 00:18:40,790 --> 00:18:38,490 other than there's been this kind of 426 00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:40,800 evolution the show if you listen to the 427 00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:42,720 show and go back and listen to it the in 428 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:46,080 de thane near-death experience science 429 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:49,290 really comes up because if you look at 430 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:51,210 the the general lay of the land and you 431 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:53,610 say there's kind of two models that 432 00:18:57,529 --> 00:18:55,890 science is dealing with two paradigms 433 00:19:00,169 --> 00:18:57,539 one paradigm is the 434 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:00,179 we're all biological robots materialism 435 00:19:05,599 --> 00:19:03,210 scientific materialism and you say so 436 00:19:09,649 --> 00:19:05,609 there's that and there's something else 437 00:19:11,330 --> 00:19:09,659 and then you dig into is that true are 438 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:11,340 we biological robots and you start 439 00:19:14,180 --> 00:19:12,450 pulling that apart look at 440 00:19:16,639 --> 00:19:14,190 parapsychology and you look at the data 441 00:19:20,090 --> 00:19:16,649 and you look at science and philosophy 442 00:19:23,919 --> 00:19:20,100 of science and all that eventually you 443 00:19:26,779 --> 00:19:23,929 you come down to a lot of nitpicky 444 00:19:30,919 --> 00:19:26,789 statistical is that really significant 445 00:19:33,769 --> 00:19:30,929 and kind of a Richard Wiseman I accept 446 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:33,779 the data but that begs the question do 447 00:19:39,769 --> 00:19:36,210 we need a better standard how kind of 448 00:19:42,379 --> 00:19:39,779 thing nde science near-death experience 449 00:19:45,769 --> 00:19:42,389 encounters seemed to kind of break 450 00:19:49,159 --> 00:19:45,779 through all that nonsense in a way 451 00:19:51,950 --> 00:19:49,169 that's really challenging to that 452 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:51,960 atheistic materialistic worldview 453 00:19:57,109 --> 00:19:54,570 because the medical profession really 454 00:19:59,060 --> 00:19:57,119 approaches this phenomenon and these 455 00:20:02,690 --> 00:19:59,070 phenomena from a different standpoint 456 00:20:05,629 --> 00:20:02,700 they say we had this guy on the table he 457 00:20:07,279 --> 00:20:05,639 died and he came back and new stuff that 458 00:20:10,190 --> 00:20:07,289 he wasn't supposed to be able to know 459 00:20:11,930 --> 00:20:10,200 and the doctors are very pragmatic 460 00:20:14,539 --> 00:20:11,940 people for the most part they were 461 00:20:16,940 --> 00:20:14,549 interested in saving people's lives so 462 00:20:18,979 --> 00:20:16,950 as that dad has emerged and then as 463 00:20:22,009 --> 00:20:18,989 researchers have tried to compile that 464 00:20:25,129 --> 00:20:22,019 into some meaningful scientific form 465 00:20:28,879 --> 00:20:25,139 it's really created this I think very 466 00:20:31,609 --> 00:20:28,889 very compelling body of evidence getting 467 00:20:33,919 --> 00:20:31,619 back to the biological robot question 468 00:20:36,139 --> 00:20:33,929 that is are we biological robots and 469 00:20:39,919 --> 00:20:36,149 then d signs of course comes back with 470 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:39,929 the resounding no whatever we are were 471 00:20:44,690 --> 00:20:42,450 not biological robots we have this 472 00:20:47,210 --> 00:20:44,700 consciousness it is there is such a 473 00:20:50,839 --> 00:20:47,220 thing and most importantly it seems to 474 00:20:53,180 --> 00:20:50,849 survive our bodily death in my mind the 475 00:20:56,149 --> 00:20:53,190 episode that really launched the arc of 476 00:20:58,029 --> 00:20:56,159 the show into NDEs was was episode 94 477 00:21:01,219 --> 00:20:58,039 with your interview with Jeffrey long 478 00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:01,229 but before that you know you'd spent a 479 00:21:07,159 --> 00:21:04,710 fair amount of time on interviewing the 480 00:21:09,169 --> 00:21:07,169 skeptics you'd that you had a lot of 481 00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:09,179 episodes on just sigh you had your site 482 00:21:16,910 --> 00:21:11,130 your own 483 00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:16,920 and then there was episodes on the dogs 484 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:19,980 and then you got into what what was 485 00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:21,810 interred certainly entertaining for the 486 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:25,590 listener the whole the whole smackdown 487 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:30,090 with with Ben Radford and the the 488 00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:32,730 psychic detectives well I think you've 489 00:21:37,670 --> 00:21:35,220 kind of pinpointed really a turning 490 00:21:40,490 --> 00:21:37,680 point in the show at least in my mind 491 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:40,500 and that's that I had this idea starting 492 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:43,410 out that it's about the data you know 493 00:21:47,860 --> 00:21:45,570 this is science after all and science is 494 00:21:51,350 --> 00:21:47,870 concerned with measurement and data 495 00:21:53,630 --> 00:21:51,360 evidence and my thought was hey look 496 00:21:55,850 --> 00:21:53,640 let's just try and get our arms around 497 00:21:58,820 --> 00:21:55,860 the data let's get good data and then 498 00:22:01,040 --> 00:21:58,830 any reasonable person will be able to 499 00:22:05,570 --> 00:22:01,050 sort that out and decide one way or 500 00:22:07,940 --> 00:22:05,580 another and I pretty quickly got an idea 501 00:22:09,290 --> 00:22:07,950 that maybe that wasn't as simple as I 502 00:22:11,810 --> 00:22:09,300 thought and that there were other things 503 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:11,820 going on but it was really in that 504 00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:14,010 series of interviews with bed Radford 505 00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:17,220 that that became clear it'll in a way 506 00:22:22,580 --> 00:22:19,110 that wasn't before and that's you know 507 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:22,590 when ben says just to fill people in so 508 00:22:27,740 --> 00:22:25,410 this isn't totally inside baseball Ben 509 00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:27,750 and I did a follow-up series of 510 00:22:32,540 --> 00:22:29,910 interviews with these folks who are 511 00:22:35,330 --> 00:22:32,550 involved in this psychic detective case 512 00:22:37,550 --> 00:22:35,340 so we I picked the case and then we 513 00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:37,560 interviewed actual we actually 514 00:22:42,650 --> 00:22:40,110 interviewed the psychic medium who 515 00:22:46,130 --> 00:22:42,660 helped the police we interviewed two 516 00:22:48,380 --> 00:22:46,140 police officers a captain more and a 517 00:22:50,780 --> 00:22:48,390 lieutenant Hughes in New Jersey who had 518 00:22:52,490 --> 00:22:50,790 investigated this case and I interviewed 519 00:22:54,770 --> 00:22:52,500 those folks and then been interviewed 520 00:22:56,900 --> 00:22:54,780 those folks then we got back on and did 521 00:22:59,930 --> 00:22:56,910 this as you say Smackdown thing that was 522 00:23:02,480 --> 00:22:59,940 a title of the show smackdown yeah and 523 00:23:05,870 --> 00:23:02,490 you get to this point where this medium 524 00:23:08,420 --> 00:23:05,880 has given this rather amazing body of 525 00:23:10,370 --> 00:23:08,430 knowledge to the police and have told 526 00:23:12,350 --> 00:23:10,380 them without any prior now to any way of 527 00:23:15,290 --> 00:23:12,360 knowing any of these things that there's 528 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:15,300 a killer the killer is from New Jersey 529 00:23:20,150 --> 00:23:17,370 the killer is from this little local 530 00:23:23,570 --> 00:23:20,160 area called the hollow the killer went 531 00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:23,580 down to Florida committed a murder there 532 00:23:27,570 --> 00:23:25,030 was imprisoned 533 00:23:29,370 --> 00:23:27,580 out came back and then committed these 534 00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:29,380 crimes so that's part of what the 535 00:23:34,830 --> 00:23:32,080 psychic said but I'll get to the point 536 00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:34,840 here in a minute the controversy between 537 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:38,080 Ben and I came down to whether or not 538 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:41,530 one of the detectives remembered that 539 00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:43,930 instead of saying that the killer went 540 00:23:50,090 --> 00:23:47,110 to Florida he remembered the psychic 541 00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:50,100 saying that the killer went to the South 542 00:23:55,740 --> 00:23:52,510 reinforcing that the notion that the 543 00:23:58,110 --> 00:23:55,750 psychics throw what wide nets out there 544 00:23:59,850 --> 00:23:58,120 tried men try and try and get hit with 545 00:24:02,150 --> 00:23:59,860 with white comments like that as opposed 546 00:24:04,620 --> 00:24:02,160 to something specific like floored right 547 00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:04,630 but I mean it's preposterous right I 548 00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:07,600 mean it's completely crazy given that 549 00:24:11,790 --> 00:24:09,190 all the other things that the psychic 550 00:24:14,460 --> 00:24:11,800 has gotten right and the fact that you 551 00:24:15,930 --> 00:24:14,470 know one person specifically one of the 552 00:24:17,820 --> 00:24:15,940 detectives specifically remembers 553 00:24:19,230 --> 00:24:17,830 Florida and the other guy remembers the 554 00:24:20,730 --> 00:24:19,240 south will actually be even did a 555 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:20,740 follow-up interview with this guy I 556 00:24:25,230 --> 00:24:22,810 insisted that right then we got him on 557 00:24:28,590 --> 00:24:25,240 the phone and he says to me and he says 558 00:24:31,650 --> 00:24:28,600 to Ben hey I might have said the south 559 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:31,660 in the general sense but i do remember 560 00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:34,090 florida so this should have been the end 561 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:37,120 of it but it's not been persist he 562 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:39,250 brings this up again and again and to 563 00:24:44,970 --> 00:24:41,290 this day I don't know if he's willing to 564 00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:44,980 kind of concede that point but the the 565 00:24:50,130 --> 00:24:47,500 whole thinking with a guy who's an 566 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:50,140 otherwise likable intelligent guy Ben 567 00:24:57,870 --> 00:24:54,330 Radford and how he can remain completely 568 00:25:00,090 --> 00:24:57,880 married to these beliefs and to this 569 00:25:01,830 --> 00:25:00,100 interpretation of the data that just 570 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:01,840 doesn't fit with just the kind of 571 00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:04,570 common-sense understanding of it really 572 00:25:09,210 --> 00:25:06,310 sent me in a different direction and 573 00:25:12,930 --> 00:25:09,220 saying you know what it's not about the 574 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:12,940 data it's really about everything else 575 00:25:16,890 --> 00:25:14,650 it's about why we believe what we 576 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:16,900 believe how our belief systems develop 577 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:19,450 our belief systems change and until we 578 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:22,810 really figure that stuff out then all 579 00:25:27,030 --> 00:25:25,090 this stuff about the data is more or 580 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:27,040 less a sideshow because people will 581 00:25:33,930 --> 00:25:30,010 always be able to say it's the cell 582 00:25:35,370 --> 00:25:33,940 that's not Florida if they want to and 583 00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:35,380 when we spoke last week it was 584 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:37,150 interesting I asked you why why did you 585 00:25:41,940 --> 00:25:38,710 revisit because 586 00:25:44,970 --> 00:25:41,950 was 151 153 was revisited I think on 587 00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:44,980 skeptic a layer or you you jointly 588 00:25:49,529 --> 00:25:47,289 published to show what and you said that 589 00:25:52,529 --> 00:25:49,539 Ben came back to you you know it was 590 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:52,539 actually another podcaster a guy by the 591 00:25:57,930 --> 00:25:54,490 name of Blake Smith and he has his show 592 00:26:01,560 --> 00:25:57,940 called monster talk and he lost her talk 593 00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:01,570 right so he became interested in skeptic 594 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:04,240 Oh in this debate and was nice enough 595 00:26:08,130 --> 00:26:05,890 really to kind of pull this back 596 00:26:10,260 --> 00:26:08,140 together and say hey let's kind of get 597 00:26:11,970 --> 00:26:10,270 some resolution on this and then had 598 00:26:14,519 --> 00:26:11,980 kind of gone his way and I had kind of 599 00:26:16,260 --> 00:26:14,529 thrown some pretty sharp Barb's at him 600 00:26:18,090 --> 00:26:16,270 and I guess he wasn't really too 601 00:26:19,860 --> 00:26:18,100 interested in coming back but Blake 602 00:26:22,130 --> 00:26:19,870 talked him into coming back and I was 603 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:22,140 like sure like I said I mean I am 604 00:26:26,490 --> 00:26:24,730 anytime anywhere on this stuff and that 605 00:26:28,980 --> 00:26:26,500 was that was evidence of it Alex just 606 00:26:31,049 --> 00:26:28,990 that was probably four on one right 607 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:31,059 there was there was Blake and he's got a 608 00:26:36,029 --> 00:26:33,850 co-host and there was Ben and we were 609 00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:36,039 all kind of kind of going after you on 610 00:26:39,210 --> 00:26:37,510 that thing but it was it's interesting 611 00:26:42,269 --> 00:26:39,220 that they would bring it up that much 612 00:26:44,159 --> 00:26:42,279 later what was his interest in rehashing 613 00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:44,169 we you know one of the things that's 614 00:26:51,380 --> 00:26:46,809 interesting about the medium of 615 00:26:55,649 --> 00:26:51,390 podcasting is that these things live 616 00:26:58,680 --> 00:26:55,659 forever in time and its mother real fun 617 00:27:01,019 --> 00:26:58,690 things for me is getting emails from 618 00:27:05,130 --> 00:27:01,029 folks who say hey I just discovered the 619 00:27:06,419 --> 00:27:05,140 show on episode 140 and I've decided to 620 00:27:09,330 --> 00:27:06,429 go back and listen from the beginning 621 00:27:11,310 --> 00:27:09,340 you know I think wow that's so great I 622 00:27:12,930 --> 00:27:11,320 mean that's I've done that so many times 623 00:27:14,460 --> 00:27:12,940 in exploring something and getting 624 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:14,470 interested in it and then finding that 625 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:16,090 there's this library that I can go back 626 00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:18,970 and listen to so I think the the time 627 00:27:23,340 --> 00:27:20,440 stinking Singh thing and the fact that 628 00:27:25,620 --> 00:27:23,350 you know Blake for example discovered 629 00:27:29,399 --> 00:27:25,630 this thing that had happened a year ago 630 00:27:31,019 --> 00:27:29,409 and yet felt it being immediate and 631 00:27:33,510 --> 00:27:31,029 present to what do you want to deal with 632 00:27:35,730 --> 00:27:33,520 is is I think part of the whole thing so 633 00:27:38,340 --> 00:27:35,740 those kinds of shows those I think you 634 00:27:40,590 --> 00:27:38,350 called the this number 68 the smack down 635 00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:40,600 those kinds of those kinds of shows were 636 00:27:45,090 --> 00:27:43,120 there very stark contrast between you 637 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:45,100 and who you're interviewing there's 638 00:27:49,860 --> 00:27:48,010 radford you had Brian Dunning on do you 639 00:27:51,299 --> 00:27:49,870 like doing those shows when when you 640 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:51,309 know that you're going to be going 641 00:27:54,660 --> 00:27:52,450 head-to-head with some 642 00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:54,670 that fundamentally disagrees with you I 643 00:28:00,390 --> 00:27:57,760 don't like those but I don't seem to 644 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:00,400 dislike them in the way that other folks 645 00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:02,290 do when I do those shoes them the 646 00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:04,960 reaction is usually polarized there's so 647 00:28:09,780 --> 00:28:06,550 many people and this always surprises me 648 00:28:12,180 --> 00:28:09,790 who are proponents believers if you will 649 00:28:15,060 --> 00:28:12,190 who are really offended I mean they just 650 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:15,070 don't like controversy you can see and 651 00:28:19,530 --> 00:28:17,010 they don't like this kind of 652 00:28:21,390 --> 00:28:19,540 confrontational battling it out kind of 653 00:28:23,580 --> 00:28:21,400 thing and that always surprise me I 654 00:28:25,860 --> 00:28:23,590 don't know how you really get to the 655 00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:25,870 bottom of things that you care about 656 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:28,720 deeply or that you have strong opinions 657 00:28:33,780 --> 00:28:30,930 about without having a little bit of 658 00:28:36,090 --> 00:28:33,790 friction and the other thing I guess I'd 659 00:28:38,820 --> 00:28:36,100 say about that is that while I don't 660 00:28:41,130 --> 00:28:38,830 seek those shows out and I don't think 661 00:28:44,190 --> 00:28:41,140 those need to be the main focus of 662 00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:44,200 skeptic oh I do feel a need to revisit 663 00:28:49,230 --> 00:28:46,480 those topics every now and again because 664 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:49,240 one of the conclusions that I came to in 665 00:28:54,390 --> 00:28:51,490 this hey it's not about the data it's 666 00:28:55,890 --> 00:28:54,400 about everything else is there's a 667 00:28:58,860 --> 00:28:55,900 question I think in the back of 668 00:29:01,770 --> 00:28:58,870 everyone's mind which is how can this be 669 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:01,780 I mean here's this guy or here's this 670 00:29:06,570 --> 00:29:03,690 group of people who are saying 671 00:29:09,540 --> 00:29:06,580 fundamentally the scientific model that 672 00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:09,550 we have is flawed and the immediate 673 00:29:15,060 --> 00:29:12,190 question you have to be is how can that 674 00:29:18,030 --> 00:29:15,070 be wait a minute I have this iphone 5 675 00:29:20,790 --> 00:29:18,040 here that is a testament to how great 676 00:29:23,550 --> 00:29:20,800 science is so don't tell me science is 677 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:23,560 wrong how can this be so I think we have 678 00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:26,770 to occasionally go back and revisit that 679 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:28,960 and really look hard at what the other 680 00:29:34,230 --> 00:29:31,450 folks have to say the folks who say no 681 00:29:35,970 --> 00:29:34,240 you are a biological robot life does 682 00:29:38,730 --> 00:29:35,980 have no meaning and it's all about 683 00:29:41,370 --> 00:29:38,740 machines I think we do have to go back 684 00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:41,380 and give them the floor every once in a 685 00:29:46,140 --> 00:29:43,990 while and hash that out with them I 686 00:29:48,930 --> 00:29:46,150 mentioned n bees and E's has been a 687 00:29:50,670 --> 00:29:48,940 pretty prevalent topic and you think as 688 00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:50,680 you've described you think it's a it's a 689 00:29:54,570 --> 00:29:53,110 pretty important topic in what you're 690 00:29:58,410 --> 00:29:54,580 pursuing with the show there is a 691 00:30:00,240 --> 00:29:58,420 Jeffrey long in 94 number episode 94 and 692 00:30:04,740 --> 00:30:00,250 then you had just a whole series you 693 00:30:05,810 --> 00:30:04,750 finally got Sam par Nia on 116 I have 694 00:30:07,910 --> 00:30:05,820 down 695 00:30:10,130 --> 00:30:07,920 he is doing that called the aware study 696 00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:10,140 i believe is there any update on where 697 00:30:15,020 --> 00:30:12,510 that is i don't know if we'll be able to 698 00:30:17,930 --> 00:30:15,030 get dr. purnia back on i certainly hope 699 00:30:20,690 --> 00:30:17,940 so when the end when the aware study is 700 00:30:21,620 --> 00:30:20,700 published as far as the updates i think 701 00:30:24,110 --> 00:30:21,630 there's a lot of people that are 702 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:24,120 fascinated by that work I don't know 703 00:30:28,130 --> 00:30:25,890 currently what the status is but the 704 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:28,140 last time I checked they had really not 705 00:30:32,270 --> 00:30:30,690 published a lot of information they've 706 00:30:34,010 --> 00:30:32,280 let out some little hints here and there 707 00:30:36,140 --> 00:30:34,020 about what might be coming but again 708 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:36,150 it's kind of in the future we'll have 709 00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:39,090 this of course my take on the aware 710 00:30:46,010 --> 00:30:42,960 study is that it's kind of a slight of 711 00:30:48,050 --> 00:30:46,020 hand if you will in it here is a study 712 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:48,060 that's gained a tremendous amount of 713 00:30:53,450 --> 00:30:50,970 attention and focus within the nde 714 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:53,460 research community and it's really a 715 00:30:58,400 --> 00:30:55,890 replication of a study that produced 716 00:31:02,450 --> 00:30:58,410 null results i mean the the idea that 717 00:31:05,210 --> 00:31:02,460 you can have an image above the hospital 718 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:05,220 bed of a patient that suffers cardiac 719 00:31:10,430 --> 00:31:07,290 arrest and that they'll be able to leave 720 00:31:12,260 --> 00:31:10,440 their body and see that there's a lot of 721 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:12,270 problems in that experiment as we 722 00:31:16,910 --> 00:31:14,610 explored in that show and that dr. prani 723 00:31:19,010 --> 00:31:16,920 is willing to admit our problems but 724 00:31:21,380 --> 00:31:19,020 moreover when they ran the pilot study 725 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:21,390 for that they didn't get any positive 726 00:31:27,140 --> 00:31:24,570 results so usually you take that as a 727 00:31:30,140 --> 00:31:27,150 sign of either there's nothing there 728 00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:30,150 which i think is is not usually the kind 729 00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:32,640 of conclusion that you draw from a pilot 730 00:31:38,270 --> 00:31:36,000 study or you'd say gee we need to rework 731 00:31:40,490 --> 00:31:38,280 this in a way where we can get some data 732 00:31:42,770 --> 00:31:40,500 that we can really wrap our arms around 733 00:31:44,870 --> 00:31:42,780 and as i also pointed out and point out 734 00:31:47,630 --> 00:31:44,880 again and again on the show is in that 735 00:31:50,780 --> 00:31:47,640 same series of experiments if you will 736 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:50,790 there was research done by dr. penny 737 00:31:56,390 --> 00:31:53,250 sorry and dr. peter fennec where they 738 00:31:57,770 --> 00:31:56,400 did a simpler thing and they just went 739 00:32:00,140 --> 00:31:57,780 and talked to the people after they had 740 00:32:02,180 --> 00:32:00,150 cardiac arrest and they said do you 741 00:32:03,650 --> 00:32:02,190 remember your resuscitation process do 742 00:32:06,830 --> 00:32:03,660 you remember the specifics of it and 743 00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:06,840 then they compared the accuracy of that 744 00:32:13,340 --> 00:32:11,430 with the accuracy of patients who had 745 00:32:15,950 --> 00:32:13,350 suffered a cardiac arrest but didn't 746 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:15,960 have a near-death experience and they 747 00:32:19,250 --> 00:32:18,210 had a very statistically significant 748 00:32:21,140 --> 00:32:19,260 result from that 749 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:21,150 and Jan hold them from the University of 750 00:32:27,620 --> 00:32:23,970 North Texas did a similar experiment 751 00:32:30,050 --> 00:32:27,630 publisher results also had significant 752 00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:30,060 results so according to dr. purnia he is 753 00:32:35,690 --> 00:32:33,360 going to include that kind of data in 754 00:32:38,750 --> 00:32:35,700 that kind of analysis in the aware study 755 00:32:40,460 --> 00:32:38,760 but he kind of leads with this idea of 756 00:32:42,110 --> 00:32:40,470 people are going to float outside of 757 00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:42,120 their bodies and see these pictures on 758 00:32:47,090 --> 00:32:44,640 the wall because again in the in the 759 00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:47,100 reality of selling science and 760 00:32:51,290 --> 00:32:49,200 communicating these ideas and the ways 761 00:32:53,780 --> 00:32:51,300 that people can grab on to that's 762 00:32:56,450 --> 00:32:53,790 certainly an idea that's captured the 763 00:32:59,180 --> 00:32:56,460 imagination of people across the board 764 00:33:01,340 --> 00:32:59,190 believers to kind of hardcore skeptics 765 00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:01,350 as being a good way to run this 766 00:33:04,250 --> 00:33:02,880 experiment although I don't think it is 767 00:33:06,790 --> 00:33:04,260 a good way but anyways that's the 768 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:06,800 general sentiment the Jeffrey long 769 00:33:11,770 --> 00:33:08,850 interview I thought was interesting in 770 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:11,780 that is when I listened to it I got the 771 00:33:17,090 --> 00:33:15,090 my sense was was wow you you've got 772 00:33:20,210 --> 00:33:17,100 you've got the guy you've been searching 773 00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:20,220 for he's got a that was a new york times 774 00:33:24,830 --> 00:33:22,080 bestselling book if I remember correctly 775 00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:24,840 I saw him he was on he was on national 776 00:33:31,580 --> 00:33:28,110 media that Today Show do you think that 777 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:31,590 that that he changed that the public 778 00:33:36,110 --> 00:33:33,930 dialogue the broad public dialogue and 779 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:36,120 the perception of ND ease and and what 780 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:38,370 it what it means to our existence do you 781 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:40,530 think it really moved the needle I don't 782 00:33:44,570 --> 00:33:42,690 know you can look at it both ways you 783 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:44,580 can look at it in terms of all the 784 00:33:49,910 --> 00:33:46,410 things that you said New York Times 785 00:33:53,780 --> 00:33:49,920 bestseller national media follow on 786 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:53,790 books success success success or you can 787 00:34:01,340 --> 00:33:56,970 look at it and say but the persistence 788 00:34:03,620 --> 00:34:01,350 of the counter atheistic idea that this 789 00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:03,630 is all just an illusion has also 790 00:34:08,919 --> 00:34:06,510 persisted and is also going forward in 791 00:34:11,869 --> 00:34:08,929 the mainstream science media and has 792 00:34:14,090 --> 00:34:11,879 continued to play and get out there too 793 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:14,100 so it depends you know is the glass half 794 00:34:18,590 --> 00:34:16,530 empty or half full also if you look at 795 00:34:22,030 --> 00:34:18,600 it from a historical perspective there's 796 00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:22,040 certainly been a lot of indie ebooks 797 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:25,649 since raymond moody on that have gained 798 00:34:30,260 --> 00:34:28,050 a lot of this kind of attention in this 799 00:34:33,109 --> 00:34:30,270 kind of traction among the general 800 00:34:35,389 --> 00:34:33,119 population and yet the 801 00:34:38,720 --> 00:34:35,399 persistence of the biological robot 802 00:34:41,029 --> 00:34:38,730 paradigm kevin alexander seems to be 803 00:34:44,450 --> 00:34:41,039 hitting heath he's had arguably even 804 00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:44,460 more success with his book and and my 805 00:34:50,269 --> 00:34:46,639 wife mentioned that she heard him on on 806 00:34:53,409 --> 00:34:50,279 NPR or something so he's running up 807 00:34:55,879 --> 00:34:53,419 against the same resistance you believe 808 00:34:58,220 --> 00:34:55,889 well it's funny because they're 809 00:35:00,620 --> 00:34:58,230 obviously isn't the resistance right so 810 00:35:03,529 --> 00:35:00,630 he New York Times bestseller number one 811 00:35:05,930 --> 00:35:03,539 on amazon Oprah NPR all the media 812 00:35:08,089 --> 00:35:05,940 outlets you can't sit back and say 813 00:35:10,009 --> 00:35:08,099 there's resistance but where there is 814 00:35:12,739 --> 00:35:10,019 resistance is in the within the 815 00:35:15,589 --> 00:35:12,749 scientific community in accepting this 816 00:35:18,349 --> 00:35:15,599 or putting any kind of serious resources 817 00:35:19,849 --> 00:35:18,359 behind looking at these questions 818 00:35:21,559 --> 00:35:19,859 because there's a lot of ways to do it 819 00:35:25,069 --> 00:35:21,569 as we fix part on the show it's not like 820 00:35:27,319 --> 00:35:25,079 this is completely outside the realm of 821 00:35:28,910 --> 00:35:27,329 what science can investigate certainly 822 00:35:32,029 --> 00:35:28,920 outside the realm of what medicine can 823 00:35:34,970 --> 00:35:32,039 investigate it's it's not but yet it's 824 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:34,980 ignored so I before we celebrate you 825 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:38,249 know the coming paradigm shift I think 826 00:35:42,970 --> 00:35:40,650 we have to take a good look at even this 827 00:35:45,259 --> 00:35:42,980 brief little snippet of history and 828 00:35:47,509 --> 00:35:45,269 learn a lesson from that and be very 829 00:35:50,089 --> 00:35:47,519 cautious in our optimism that there is 830 00:35:52,489 --> 00:35:50,099 going to be a lot of change it is the 831 00:35:54,410 --> 00:35:52,499 paradigm shift coming I don't see a lot 832 00:35:56,809 --> 00:35:54,420 of evidence for it then again in a 833 00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:56,819 recent interview with dr. Mario 834 00:36:00,109 --> 00:35:58,410 Beauregard I asked him that question 835 00:36:03,769 --> 00:36:00,119 directly and I thought he had a very 836 00:36:05,210 --> 00:36:03,779 strong argument for the fact that there 837 00:36:09,380 --> 00:36:05,220 is this change and he's a neuro 838 00:36:11,329 --> 00:36:09,390 scientist in Montreal and he says hey at 839 00:36:13,009 --> 00:36:11,339 my university at my conferences in the 840 00:36:16,999 --> 00:36:13,019 in the journals that I publish in I 841 00:36:19,130 --> 00:36:17,009 definitely see a shift a change in the 842 00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:19,140 openness to these ideas in the last 10 843 00:36:25,069 --> 00:36:21,710 years so maybe I'm being too pessimistic 844 00:36:27,170 --> 00:36:25,079 let's talk about the forum talk to me 845 00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:27,180 about the role that the form and the 846 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:29,910 message boards play in in skeptic out 847 00:36:35,569 --> 00:36:32,249 today well the forum was actually 848 00:36:38,539 --> 00:36:35,579 started by a skeptical listener Jacob 849 00:36:40,430 --> 00:36:38,549 who lives in Israel contacted me oh boy 850 00:36:42,229 --> 00:36:40,440 I think was a lot earlier than episode 851 00:36:44,509 --> 00:36:42,239 100 and he was somebody who is really 852 00:36:46,460 --> 00:36:44,519 interested in the show and said hey you 853 00:36:49,580 --> 00:36:46,470 know it would be great if we had a forum 854 00:36:52,970 --> 00:36:49,590 for this why don't I run this and he has 855 00:36:55,460 --> 00:36:52,980 a website called mind energy net he 856 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:55,470 thought it fit in general and the topics 857 00:36:58,820 --> 00:36:57,450 that he liked to cover and he just sees 858 00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:58,830 a guys step forward and said hey let me 859 00:37:03,050 --> 00:37:00,720 run a forum for a skeptical and I was 860 00:37:05,540 --> 00:37:03,060 like great which is you know one of the 861 00:37:08,330 --> 00:37:05,550 things that has always been in the back 862 00:37:11,450 --> 00:37:08,340 of my mind about skeptic Oh is that's 863 00:37:13,270 --> 00:37:11,460 idea of a community project not just me 864 00:37:16,190 --> 00:37:13,280 but people are interested in these 865 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:16,200 topics often don't have a lot of other 866 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:19,050 outlets I love to engage with those 867 00:37:24,620 --> 00:37:21,690 people and get them involved in the the 868 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:24,630 project that is skeptical so it's 869 00:37:29,690 --> 00:37:27,210 totally fitting to have somebody like 870 00:37:31,670 --> 00:37:29,700 Jacob step forward and and run that to 871 00:37:33,859 --> 00:37:31,680 me and he's been fantastic i'm really 872 00:37:36,290 --> 00:37:33,869 grateful for his help because there is 873 00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:36,300 you know a fair amount of work in 874 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:38,640 running that and then in the last year 875 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:41,130 Andy Poquette who is someone who's been 876 00:37:45,290 --> 00:37:43,650 on the show and has been a guest host on 877 00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:45,300 the show and someone who has become a 878 00:37:50,089 --> 00:37:47,760 friend of mine through the show offered 879 00:37:53,630 --> 00:37:50,099 to step forward in due moderation of the 880 00:37:56,780 --> 00:37:53,640 forum so again it's the help and support 881 00:37:59,690 --> 00:37:56,790 of people who are kind of involved and 882 00:38:02,480 --> 00:37:59,700 engaged in the process of skeptic Oh who 883 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:02,490 really make things better in a way and I 884 00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:05,130 think the forum moderation that andy has 885 00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:08,480 done has kind of made for an improved 886 00:38:16,370 --> 00:38:11,040 dialogue on the forum were you playing 887 00:38:19,220 --> 00:38:16,380 that role previously not very well so 888 00:38:21,620 --> 00:38:19,230 you do view that as an integral part it 889 00:38:23,810 --> 00:38:21,630 makes it more than just a one-way 890 00:38:26,089 --> 00:38:23,820 communication it's an important thing to 891 00:38:27,710 --> 00:38:26,099 skeptic Oh to have the form I think it 892 00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:27,720 is at the same time at the same time 893 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:29,400 I've never been involved in a forum 894 00:38:32,950 --> 00:38:31,170 before I was involved in skeptical so I 895 00:38:36,740 --> 00:38:32,960 don't really know I've had to learn 896 00:38:39,740 --> 00:38:36,750 myself what that interaction is like and 897 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:39,750 in really how you relate to people and 898 00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:42,210 how all that evolves but for me it's 899 00:38:48,550 --> 00:38:45,510 been a tremendous experience and I've 900 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:48,560 learned so much from people who've 901 00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:50,970 engaged with me in the forum and either 902 00:38:55,460 --> 00:38:52,800 have ideas or you get into these long 903 00:38:57,740 --> 00:38:55,470 sometimes lengthy back and forth and 904 00:38:59,290 --> 00:38:57,750 I've grown tremendously from the form 905 00:39:02,050 --> 00:38:59,300 and besides of 906 00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:02,060 a lot of ideas for guests from the form 907 00:39:07,260 --> 00:39:05,030 as well that's great is there any desire 908 00:39:09,820 --> 00:39:07,270 to take to take it further to do a 909 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:09,830 conference what would be the next step 910 00:39:14,050 --> 00:39:12,290 in the skeptical community is there is 911 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:14,060 there any thoughts along those lines not 912 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:17,930 so much by me I like the fact that the 913 00:39:24,610 --> 00:39:21,530 technology allows me to break away for a 914 00:39:27,250 --> 00:39:24,620 couple of hours do an interview come 915 00:39:29,580 --> 00:39:27,260 back a couple days later edit it come 916 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:29,590 back a couple days later post it and 917 00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:32,210 just be able to fill in gaps of time 918 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:34,730 with with doing this I think that's 919 00:39:41,530 --> 00:39:37,610 great I'm a little bit reluctant to 920 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:41,540 commit to the kind of all-out effort 921 00:39:46,150 --> 00:39:43,730 that a conference or conference going 922 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:46,160 you know might take I won't rule it out 923 00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:48,170 completely but now I don't see that 924 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:51,110 happening any time in your future let me 925 00:39:58,330 --> 00:39:55,610 throw a three phrases that that you've 926 00:40:01,630 --> 00:39:58,340 gotten a lot over the years on skeptic 927 00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:01,640 oh and tell me which ones of which one 928 00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:05,200 of these is your least favorite 929 00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:06,710 extraordinary claims require 930 00:40:13,630 --> 00:40:09,400 extraordinary evidence Susan Blackmore 931 00:40:16,780 --> 00:40:13,640 explained ndes or ndes are due to 932 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:16,790 elevated oxygen levels oh my favorite is 933 00:40:21,070 --> 00:40:18,410 extraordinary claims that require 934 00:40:23,860 --> 00:40:21,080 extraordinary proof far and away the 935 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:23,870 winner because I think it really it is 936 00:40:29,980 --> 00:40:27,650 remarkable how many almost every skeptic 937 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:29,990 that was on the show at some point said 938 00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:32,210 that and for those of us that were 939 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:33,920 listeners we were always kind of waiting 940 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:36,650 for the after they started saying it I 941 00:40:42,940 --> 00:40:40,130 was anticipating your response back and 942 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:42,950 you're often fairly measured with it but 943 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:45,650 it was interesting how every one of them 944 00:40:51,340 --> 00:40:48,530 at some point would say would wits about 945 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:51,350 that at some well yeah I mean it's hard 946 00:40:56,290 --> 00:40:54,530 to not go down the party line thing you 947 00:40:59,230 --> 00:40:56,300 know that they've all been taught these 948 00:41:01,110 --> 00:40:59,240 talking poem these talking points party 949 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:01,120 line arguments and they kind of 950 00:41:05,020 --> 00:41:03,170 regurgitate them without a lot of 951 00:41:07,210 --> 00:41:05,030 thought and I think sometimes that's the 952 00:41:10,570 --> 00:41:07,220 case but I think it's also true that 953 00:41:12,940 --> 00:41:10,580 that at another level even though that's 954 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:12,950 a silly statement because 955 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:14,930 of course as we've talked about so many 956 00:41:21,490 --> 00:41:18,170 times the whole idea of the enterprise 957 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:21,500 of science is to remove us from our 958 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:24,890 biases and prejudices and not introduce 959 00:41:30,310 --> 00:41:27,490 such subjective measures as 960 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:30,320 extraordinary well what's extraordinary 961 00:41:34,569 --> 00:41:32,570 to you Tim what's extraordinary to me 962 00:41:35,890 --> 00:41:34,579 those are obviously subjective and those 963 00:41:38,050 --> 00:41:35,900 are the things we want to get out of it 964 00:41:41,319 --> 00:41:38,060 so that the idea that we've introduced 965 00:41:43,450 --> 00:41:41,329 those back in is silly but at the same 966 00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:43,460 time you know we have to acknowledge 967 00:41:49,180 --> 00:41:46,910 like all these things that people say 968 00:41:53,230 --> 00:41:49,190 that don't make a lot of sense there is 969 00:41:56,050 --> 00:41:53,240 an underlying truth that you do have to 970 00:41:59,980 --> 00:41:56,060 kind of tease out of there and that's 971 00:42:04,410 --> 00:41:59,990 that hey practically speaking we do 972 00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:04,420 demand more evidence for information or 973 00:42:12,190 --> 00:42:08,960 phenomena or theories that lie beyond 974 00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:12,200 our day-to-day experience so there is 975 00:42:16,839 --> 00:42:14,720 some truth to that even if people don't 976 00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:16,849 always say it in the right way or have 977 00:42:21,849 --> 00:42:19,910 the the ability to kind of back it up 978 00:42:24,339 --> 00:42:21,859 from a logical critical thinking 979 00:42:27,069 --> 00:42:24,349 standpoint so you you have had a lot of 980 00:42:28,390 --> 00:42:27,079 skeptics on the on the show now you go 981 00:42:31,180 --> 00:42:28,400 back to the beginning at Weisman and 982 00:42:34,630 --> 00:42:31,190 Randy and and just the whole host of 983 00:42:36,460 --> 00:42:34,640 them novella who's your favorite of that 984 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:36,470 group who did you walk away with the 985 00:42:41,290 --> 00:42:39,290 most respect for oh wow those artsy 986 00:42:42,490 --> 00:42:41,300 those are two different quests I guess 987 00:42:44,710 --> 00:42:42,500 they are different questions aren't they 988 00:42:46,329 --> 00:42:44,720 so let's let's take respect first and 989 00:42:49,150 --> 00:42:46,339 then which one did you like second I 990 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:49,160 guess the one that I I respected the 991 00:42:56,859 --> 00:42:52,970 most was dr. robert price the noted 992 00:42:59,800 --> 00:42:56,869 atheist and now host of point of inquiry 993 00:43:02,559 --> 00:42:59,810 which is a very interesting atheist 994 00:43:04,180 --> 00:43:02,569 materialistic podcast that really does a 995 00:43:06,339 --> 00:43:04,190 nice job in what they do and i've 996 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:06,349 interviewed several of their hosts 997 00:43:10,990 --> 00:43:08,930 including DJ Grothe is someone else I 998 00:43:14,109 --> 00:43:11,000 enjoy talking to and spoke with a couple 999 00:43:16,839 --> 00:43:14,119 times and I have a certain respect for 1000 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:16,849 both of those guys even though I as 1001 00:43:21,010 --> 00:43:18,290 you'll hear in the interviews I can't 1002 00:43:23,230 --> 00:43:21,020 really buy into their world view as far 1003 00:43:26,299 --> 00:43:23,240 as favorites the one that jumps to mind 1004 00:43:29,929 --> 00:43:26,309 is dr. Victor Stenger who was 1005 00:43:34,390 --> 00:43:29,939 just on episode 191 I really liked about 1006 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:34,400 that is I think for anyone who's halfway 1007 00:43:41,839 --> 00:43:37,729 fair-minded the guy just completely 1008 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:41,849 blows it on his understanding of 1009 00:43:46,609 --> 00:43:44,130 near-death experience research it just 1010 00:43:49,609 --> 00:43:46,619 couldn't be more clear that someone is 1011 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:49,619 just out to lunch and yet is highly 1012 00:43:54,799 --> 00:43:52,170 respected among the atheists skeptical 1013 00:43:59,329 --> 00:43:54,809 community anyone could have exposed this 1014 00:44:02,179 --> 00:43:59,339 guy so it was just kind of fun and and I 1015 00:44:04,910 --> 00:44:02,189 think skeptical worthy to kind of point 1016 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:04,920 out some of the errors in his critical 1017 00:44:10,549 --> 00:44:07,890 thinking so what is skeptical all about 1018 00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:10,559 Alex what you described it as your 1019 00:44:16,130 --> 00:44:13,920 journey it looks like it began certainly 1020 00:44:18,019 --> 00:44:16,140 from my read is is kind of an 1021 00:44:20,089 --> 00:44:18,029 exploration of the skeptical argument 1022 00:44:21,949 --> 00:44:20,099 and then perhaps exposing that you 1023 00:44:23,929 --> 00:44:21,959 described it as your journey what what 1024 00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:23,939 do you mean by that is it something that 1025 00:44:29,029 --> 00:44:26,609 you just pick up on a day-to-day basis 1026 00:44:30,739 --> 00:44:29,039 and and you see what new topic in this 1027 00:44:33,229 --> 00:44:30,749 area interest you and you just start 1028 00:44:35,630 --> 00:44:33,239 pursuing that or is there is there an 1029 00:44:38,150 --> 00:44:35,640 overall art that you're trying to drive 1030 00:44:40,130 --> 00:44:38,160 skeptic oh okay well I think again 1031 00:44:41,900 --> 00:44:40,140 there's a couple of different questions 1032 00:44:44,209 --> 00:44:41,910 in there but that's good I understand 1033 00:44:47,539 --> 00:44:44,219 where you're going i think and i guess 1034 00:44:50,449 --> 00:44:47,549 i'd say to me at a very kind of deep 1035 00:44:52,759 --> 00:44:50,459 personal level i always wondered why 1036 00:44:55,579 --> 00:44:52,769 everyone wasn't interested in these 1037 00:44:58,400 --> 00:44:55,589 topics why i always wondered why these 1038 00:45:01,160 --> 00:44:58,410 weren't the first and foremost questions 1039 00:45:04,729 --> 00:45:01,170 on everyone's mind I mean most of us 1040 00:45:08,539 --> 00:45:04,739 spend so much time on ridiculously silly 1041 00:45:10,699 --> 00:45:08,549 things of the weather or sports or news 1042 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:10,709 or all the rest of that when the big 1043 00:45:17,419 --> 00:45:14,249 questions are who are we really what 1044 00:45:21,019 --> 00:45:17,429 happens to us after we die how are we 1045 00:45:24,169 --> 00:45:21,029 related to not only each other but the 1046 00:45:26,870 --> 00:45:24,179 universe I mean these are the big big 1047 00:45:29,209 --> 00:45:26,880 big questions and I guess I always had a 1048 00:45:31,339 --> 00:45:29,219 sense of hey am I not getting the 1049 00:45:33,109 --> 00:45:31,349 newsletter here I mean does everyone 1050 00:45:36,620 --> 00:45:33,119 else know the answers to these because 1051 00:45:39,109 --> 00:45:36,630 why isn't why isn't this foremost on 1052 00:45:39,980 --> 00:45:39,119 everyone's mind and then you kind of get 1053 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:39,990 into life 1054 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:41,850 you want to make a living you want have 1055 00:45:45,590 --> 00:45:43,530 a family and all that we all understand 1056 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:45,600 that and you say hey I can't deal with 1057 00:45:49,850 --> 00:45:47,130 all those things right now they don't 1058 00:45:51,620 --> 00:45:49,860 seem to be pressing as as much as the 1059 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:51,630 mortgage payment of the car payment is 1060 00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:54,570 so I kind of put them to the side but to 1061 00:45:59,780 --> 00:45:56,730 me they always seem to be the questions 1062 00:46:03,109 --> 00:45:59,790 that I wanted to come back to so that 1063 00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:03,119 really is the driving force of skeptical 1064 00:46:08,990 --> 00:46:06,560 along with the idea that I had all along 1065 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:09,000 because of my business experience and 1066 00:46:15,350 --> 00:46:12,090 that was the idea that I can learn I can 1067 00:46:17,660 --> 00:46:15,360 get better I can improve because I was 1068 00:46:19,690 --> 00:46:17,670 someone who despite having the right 1069 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:19,700 academic background and education 1070 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:23,130 background was failing pretty miserably 1071 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:26,130 at business before I kind of went on a 1072 00:46:30,950 --> 00:46:28,770 massive kind of learning campaign in 1073 00:46:32,660 --> 00:46:30,960 terms of how to make myself better and 1074 00:46:36,020 --> 00:46:32,670 how to improve in that so I kind of took 1075 00:46:38,030 --> 00:46:36,030 that self-improvement idea and that 1076 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:38,040 self-improvement success that led to 1077 00:46:43,550 --> 00:46:40,410 business success and said hey I can 1078 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:43,560 bootstrap myself into knowing the answer 1079 00:46:49,070 --> 00:46:46,890 to these big big questions and that's 1080 00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:49,080 really been I guess the driving force 1081 00:46:54,290 --> 00:46:52,710 has got to go so when you started and I 1082 00:46:57,500 --> 00:46:54,300 tried to find this I I don't know if I 1083 00:47:00,680 --> 00:46:57,510 found the the definitive episode it was 1084 00:47:03,020 --> 00:47:00,690 somewhere in the 40s I believe where you 1085 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:03,030 early on a skeptic oh you you were you 1086 00:47:06,890 --> 00:47:05,010 were talking about psychics and you'd 1087 00:47:09,260 --> 00:47:06,900 have skeptics on and so forth but it was 1088 00:47:11,870 --> 00:47:09,270 in the 40s when you actually started to 1089 00:47:13,700 --> 00:47:11,880 use the word believer but you said I am 1090 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:13,710 a believer do you remember saying that 1091 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:16,650 and and and putting that out there in 1092 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:18,450 skeptic oh yeah I don't specifically 1093 00:47:23,750 --> 00:47:20,490 remember that and that isn't such an 1094 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:23,760 important title to me other than one of 1095 00:47:28,900 --> 00:47:25,410 the topics I think that has been a 1096 00:47:32,180 --> 00:47:28,910 recurring theme of the show is how we 1097 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:32,190 communicate about these topics in the 1098 00:47:37,849 --> 00:47:35,130 court of public opinion if you will and 1099 00:47:39,620 --> 00:47:37,859 a lot of people will kind of have a 1100 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:39,630 knee-jerk reaction when I mentioned God 1101 00:47:44,090 --> 00:47:41,490 or when I mentioned believer or when I 1102 00:47:46,250 --> 00:47:44,100 mentioned any of these things and when 1103 00:47:48,950 --> 00:47:46,260 I'm pressed like in the forum I'm quick 1104 00:47:51,170 --> 00:47:48,960 to acknowledge that I don't know what 1105 00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:51,180 God means i don't i don't have any 1106 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:53,760 specific idea of a guy in a beer 1107 00:47:58,820 --> 00:47:55,890 or anything like that but i'm using a 1108 00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:58,830 shorthand reference to kind of shoe horn 1109 00:48:03,260 --> 00:48:01,200 us into the public debate I mean the big 1110 00:48:06,020 --> 00:48:03,270 debate is science versus religion 1111 00:48:08,380 --> 00:48:06,030 whether we like it or not that's what's 1112 00:48:10,940 --> 00:48:08,390 out there that's what's socially 1113 00:48:14,090 --> 00:48:10,950 relevant in terms of the discussion so 1114 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:14,100 in that sense okay i'm a believer if you 1115 00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:16,650 want to divide the world into skeptics 1116 00:48:21,140 --> 00:48:19,200 and believers I'll gladly take the side 1117 00:48:23,780 --> 00:48:21,150 of believer I don't think that term 1118 00:48:26,540 --> 00:48:23,790 means anything to me other than it means 1119 00:48:28,460 --> 00:48:26,550 if we're going to engage in this 1120 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:28,470 dialogue and there has to be sides this 1121 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:30,330 is the side I'll take for purposes of 1122 00:48:34,490 --> 00:48:32,850 this discussion are you saying that 1123 00:48:37,250 --> 00:48:34,500 you're taking that side because that 1124 00:48:39,950 --> 00:48:37,260 that's where you're biased or used or 1125 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:39,960 are you taking that side because you 1126 00:48:45,050 --> 00:48:41,970 know you're not a skeptic I know I'm not 1127 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:45,060 a skeptic in terms of the way that the 1128 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:47,010 skeptical proposition is offered 1129 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:49,770 currently I mean I think scientific 1130 00:48:54,050 --> 00:48:52,650 materialism is a failure I mean it's a 1131 00:48:56,050 --> 00:48:54,060 failed proposition it was a good 1132 00:48:58,580 --> 00:48:56,060 proposition I think the evidence is 1133 00:49:00,980 --> 00:48:58,590 overwhelmingly suggestive but that just 1134 00:49:05,180 --> 00:49:00,990 doesn't hold up and I think with it 1135 00:49:08,780 --> 00:49:05,190 atheism falls down the drain as well so 1136 00:49:11,900 --> 00:49:08,790 I think those propositions are falsified 1137 00:49:15,020 --> 00:49:11,910 so yeah that would push me to whatever 1138 00:49:17,180 --> 00:49:15,030 other category you want to call it you 1139 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:17,190 know I'm going to be closer to that 1140 00:49:23,260 --> 00:49:20,010 other side so one quote that stay with 1141 00:49:26,450 --> 00:49:23,270 me Steve Holt the author of phrenology 1142 00:49:29,450 --> 00:49:26,460 said it in that interview when you're 1143 00:49:33,980 --> 00:49:29,460 discussing the book he said you see 1144 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:33,990 answers I see questions do you remember 1145 00:49:39,050 --> 00:49:36,090 that quote and can you reflect on that I 1146 00:49:41,090 --> 00:49:39,060 do and I'm so glad you brought it up 1147 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:41,100 because i think that would bring this to 1148 00:49:46,430 --> 00:49:43,050 a very personal level between you and I 1149 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:46,440 because I think you would be more of the 1150 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:50,010 Steve vulc kind of mindset and probably 1151 00:49:55,460 --> 00:49:52,050 even further even on The Skeptical side 1152 00:49:56,210 --> 00:49:55,470 and I wouldn't and I'm glad you brought 1153 00:49:58,400 --> 00:49:56,220 it up because I think it's a really 1154 00:50:01,100 --> 00:49:58,410 important point at least for me and 1155 00:50:04,460 --> 00:50:01,110 that's that I don't think the middle 1156 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:04,470 holds here I don't think the oh I'm 1157 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:07,650 agnostic I just have questions about 1158 00:50:11,300 --> 00:50:09,330 this I don't think it holds and the 1159 00:50:14,390 --> 00:50:11,310 reason it doesn't hold is because you 1160 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:14,400 have to make a decision every day in the 1161 00:50:19,940 --> 00:50:17,010 way that you live your life we live in a 1162 00:50:23,630 --> 00:50:19,950 materialistic world a materialistic 1163 00:50:26,750 --> 00:50:23,640 economy and a materialistic society that 1164 00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:26,760 is the predominant worldview that's 1165 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:29,910 placed upon you if you do nothing you 1166 00:50:35,450 --> 00:50:33,330 are there by embracing materialism so 1167 00:50:37,370 --> 00:50:35,460 you can't say I'm removed from this 1168 00:50:39,590 --> 00:50:37,380 discussion you're in the middle of it 1169 00:50:42,710 --> 00:50:39,600 you're the fish you're in the water the 1170 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:42,720 water is all around you so you can't say 1171 00:50:49,670 --> 00:50:46,530 I'm agnostic your life is your choice 1172 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:49,680 and I've had numerous conversations with 1173 00:50:54,290 --> 00:50:51,690 Steve who has become a friend of mine 1174 00:50:56,900 --> 00:50:54,300 through the show and a just a really 1175 00:50:59,600 --> 00:50:56,910 terrific guy who I really enjoy talking 1176 00:51:01,970 --> 00:50:59,610 with but along these lines that the 1177 00:51:04,430 --> 00:51:01,980 middle doesn't hold there really isn't a 1178 00:51:06,950 --> 00:51:04,440 middle ground life forces us to choose 1179 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:06,960 one way or another so you say that but 1180 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:10,170 on a recent episode i believe it was 1181 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:12,810 with somebody on topics of UFOs where 1182 00:51:20,780 --> 00:51:16,770 you said there was there was a 1183 00:51:24,110 --> 00:51:20,790 discussion of the truth and you said 1184 00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:24,120 something along lines of there is no the 1185 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:26,250 truth and that's a reality that you'd 1186 00:51:31,340 --> 00:51:29,010 come to it's about the journey so you 1187 00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:31,350 you seem to be indicating that it is 1188 00:51:37,180 --> 00:51:34,110 more about an ongoing exploration for 1189 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:37,190 you as opposed to being a hardcore 1190 00:51:41,810 --> 00:51:39,690 having come down one side of the other 1191 00:51:44,390 --> 00:51:41,820 on the believer skeptic the continuum 1192 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:44,400 well again it's kind of it's kind of 1193 00:51:49,430 --> 00:51:45,930 hard you know one of the things I've 1194 00:51:52,610 --> 00:51:49,440 come to appreciate about this biological 1195 00:51:55,990 --> 00:51:52,620 robot scientific materialism that I bash 1196 00:51:58,970 --> 00:51:56,000 repeatedly because it's so strongly 1197 00:52:01,280 --> 00:51:58,980 ingrained in meshed in our culture and 1198 00:52:04,220 --> 00:52:01,290 yet it doesn't hold up and that just 1199 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:04,230 kind of galls me from from a critical 1200 00:52:08,690 --> 00:52:06,210 thinking standpoint how can something so 1201 00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:08,700 wrong have such traction so I'm always 1202 00:52:13,580 --> 00:52:11,310 bashing it on the other hand especially 1203 00:52:16,190 --> 00:52:13,590 lately I've come to appreciate how hard 1204 00:52:19,580 --> 00:52:16,200 and difficult it is to get beyond that 1205 00:52:20,970 --> 00:52:19,590 and how reassuring it is to fall back on 1206 00:52:23,550 --> 00:52:20,980 the notion 1207 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:23,560 materialism I mean everything gets 1208 00:52:29,609 --> 00:52:26,770 really really fuzzy when you kind of go 1209 00:52:32,490 --> 00:52:29,619 into this post scientific materialism 1210 00:52:36,180 --> 00:52:32,500 realm and by that I mean what is reality 1211 00:52:39,180 --> 00:52:36,190 I mean if consciousness is fundamental 1212 00:52:41,340 --> 00:52:39,190 so right so this debate of biological 1213 00:52:43,230 --> 00:52:41,350 robots is that you know you're just a 1214 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:43,240 robot you're just a machine and the 1215 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:46,210 counter theory is that then somehow and 1216 00:52:50,820 --> 00:52:47,770 somewhat we don't understand this thing 1217 00:52:53,970 --> 00:52:50,830 of consciousness this me this ghost 1218 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:53,980 inside the machine is fundamental so 1219 00:52:58,440 --> 00:52:56,050 matter isn't fundamental consciousness 1220 00:53:02,400 --> 00:52:58,450 is fundamental that's one hypothesis 1221 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:02,410 well what does that really mean it means 1222 00:53:08,250 --> 00:53:05,410 that all these ideas of measurement all 1223 00:53:12,930 --> 00:53:08,260 these ideas of reality if you will are 1224 00:53:16,260 --> 00:53:12,940 now have to be put on hold so we can no 1225 00:53:19,380 --> 00:53:16,270 longer in that world talk about reality 1226 00:53:21,660 --> 00:53:19,390 or talk about our experience or talk 1227 00:53:24,359 --> 00:53:21,670 about things like time it all kind of 1228 00:53:27,599 --> 00:53:24,369 falls apart so in that sense what I've 1229 00:53:29,970 --> 00:53:27,609 said before and I think it holds is that 1230 00:53:33,780 --> 00:53:29,980 hey I'm going to play this little game 1231 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:33,790 with you called consensus reality and 1232 00:53:38,970 --> 00:53:35,770 we're going to pretend that this desk 1233 00:53:43,530 --> 00:53:38,980 that I'm tapping on Israel is solid even 1234 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:43,540 though we know it's 99.999% nothing it 1235 00:53:48,780 --> 00:53:46,210 appears solid to me you can see it I can 1236 00:53:50,849 --> 00:53:48,790 see it we're going to call this reality 1237 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:50,859 and in that same way we're going to call 1238 00:53:54,660 --> 00:53:52,690 all these things that we debate about 1239 00:53:56,700 --> 00:53:54,670 reality and we're going to call skeptics 1240 00:53:58,170 --> 00:53:56,710 on this and this and that but at the 1241 00:54:00,530 --> 00:53:58,180 same time while we're doing that we have 1242 00:54:04,050 --> 00:54:00,540 to acknowledge that that might all be 1243 00:54:08,130 --> 00:54:04,060 just kind of a game if you will and 1244 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:08,140 there may be a bigger larger truth out 1245 00:54:13,109 --> 00:54:10,690 there that we're not really dealing with 1246 00:54:15,570 --> 00:54:13,119 when we talk about things in that way 1247 00:54:18,450 --> 00:54:15,580 and that's pretty abstract but I think 1248 00:54:20,340 --> 00:54:18,460 you can see where I'm going and why it's 1249 00:54:22,490 --> 00:54:20,350 necessary to kind of talk out of both 1250 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:22,500 sides of your mouth when you talk about 1251 00:54:28,980 --> 00:54:25,450 skeptics versus believers or scientism 1252 00:54:31,140 --> 00:54:28,990 or even scientific evidence so that does 1253 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:31,150 get out there is that the direction that 1254 00:54:33,420 --> 00:54:32,170 you're going to take the show to 1255 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:33,430 continue 1256 00:54:37,380 --> 00:54:35,410 that's the synchronicity kind of topics 1257 00:54:41,010 --> 00:54:37,390 and some things you've been exploring 1258 00:54:43,290 --> 00:54:41,020 recently on the show the reality is not 1259 00:54:45,299 --> 00:54:43,300 really reality kinds of topics is that 1260 00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:45,309 where your current interests are lying 1261 00:54:49,980 --> 00:54:47,200 not too much because there's really 1262 00:54:52,170 --> 00:54:49,990 there really isn't a lot to go there 1263 00:54:54,359 --> 00:54:52,180 right i mean as soon as you jump into 1264 00:54:57,210 --> 00:54:54,369 that other home then what is there to 1265 00:55:00,210 --> 00:54:57,220 talk about a couple of areas i want to 1266 00:55:02,339 --> 00:55:00,220 pursue further and they really have a 1267 00:55:04,470 --> 00:55:02,349 tendency to polarize people or maybe 1268 00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:04,480 more accurately to really put people off 1269 00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:07,210 but one of the nice things about doing a 1270 00:55:12,329 --> 00:55:09,730 show like this and not caring too much 1271 00:55:15,750 --> 00:55:12,339 about growing your audience as much as 1272 00:55:18,839 --> 00:55:15,760 you can or appealing to a certain crowd 1273 00:55:21,780 --> 00:55:18,849 is that you don't have to worry if 1274 00:55:26,130 --> 00:55:21,790 people are put off by these topics but 1275 00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:26,140 one topic is UFOs and eat eat hypothesis 1276 00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:29,050 I think it's central Central I've 1277 00:55:33,660 --> 00:55:31,690 explored it a little bit in terms of how 1278 00:55:36,420 --> 00:55:33,670 that might relate to consciousness what 1279 00:55:38,490 --> 00:55:36,430 those reports mean but I think wrestling 1280 00:55:41,849 --> 00:55:38,500 that to the ground and figuring out as 1281 00:55:45,510 --> 00:55:41,859 best you can what the reality of that is 1282 00:55:48,030 --> 00:55:45,520 is central to answering these big 1283 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:48,040 picture questions and it's another one 1284 00:55:53,460 --> 00:55:50,890 what is the EP hypothesis whether their 1285 00:55:56,579 --> 00:55:53,470 extraterrestrial beings or not is the et 1286 00:56:00,630 --> 00:55:56,589 hypothesis well the show has has 1287 00:56:03,349 --> 00:56:00,640 introduced me to many terms I tried to 1288 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:03,359 write them all down nde synchronicity 1289 00:56:09,359 --> 00:56:06,010 singularity precognition precognitive 1290 00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:09,369 dreams remote viewing neural plasticity 1291 00:56:17,150 --> 00:56:13,690 and I look forward to hearing about the 1292 00:56:19,950 --> 00:56:17,160 EP hypothesis thank you Alex for 1293 00:56:23,130 --> 00:56:19,960 agreeing to be a guest on your own show 1294 00:56:26,579 --> 00:56:23,140 and it's been a pleasure of listening to 1295 00:56:28,859 --> 00:56:26,589 the last 200 shows and please keep keep 1296 00:56:31,380 --> 00:56:28,869 the shows coming out Tim thanks so much 1297 00:56:33,780 --> 00:56:31,390 for doing this I'm really glad we did it 1298 00:56:36,299 --> 00:56:33,790 and I hope people find value in it 1299 00:56:38,730 --> 00:56:36,309 thanks again okay one quick final note 1300 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:38,740 to wrap things up here on episode 200 1301 00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:42,010 and that is that I want to thank Tim but 1302 00:56:47,310 --> 00:56:44,770 I can't use tim's last name quite 1303 00:56:49,530 --> 00:56:47,320 telling I think that a week or so 1304 00:56:52,110 --> 00:56:49,540 after the interview Tim emailed me and 1305 00:56:54,390 --> 00:56:52,120 said hey you know I have a lot of 1306 00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:54,400 corporate things I mean maybe doing some 1307 00:56:58,740 --> 00:56:56,170 board of directors and some public 1308 00:57:01,440 --> 00:56:58,750 corporations maybe I shouldn't use my 1309 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:01,450 last name now I understand that I 1310 00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:03,370 understand that completely it's for the 1311 00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:05,530 same reason that so many people don't 1312 00:57:11,310 --> 00:57:08,290 use their real name in the forum but 1313 00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:11,320 isn't it a little bit strange that we 1314 00:57:16,860 --> 00:57:13,930 can walk down this path and we can all 1315 00:57:19,410 --> 00:57:16,870 have this conversation about about 1316 00:57:22,290 --> 00:57:19,420 belief about what's important and what 1317 00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:22,300 we know and we have a tendency no matter 1318 00:57:27,870 --> 00:57:24,490 how many times we bring it up to gloss 1319 00:57:31,020 --> 00:57:27,880 over the reality that we live in a world 1320 00:57:34,110 --> 00:57:31,030 in a society that has made these kind of 1321 00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:34,120 topics taboo so that leads me to one 1322 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:36,130 question that i'd like to tee up for 1323 00:57:42,060 --> 00:57:39,970 episode two hundred and that is why are 1324 00:57:45,900 --> 00:57:42,070 so many of the topics we talked about on 1325 00:57:48,540 --> 00:57:45,910 skip to go taboo hey I really do hope 1326 00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:48,550 you've enjoyed this look at skeptic oh 1327 00:57:52,830 --> 00:57:50,890 if you'd like more information about the 1328 00:57:54,630 --> 00:57:52,840 show and you're not already a listener 1329 00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:54,640 or familiar with all our previous shows 1330 00:58:01,920 --> 00:57:57,010 please check out the skeptical website 1331 00:58:03,810 --> 00:58:01,930 it's at sk-ii pti k 0 dot com and there 1332 00:58:05,550 --> 00:58:03,820 you can also find links to join in a 1333 00:58:07,380 --> 00:58:05,560 conversation with us about the show you 1334 00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:07,390 can leave a comment directly there on 1335 00:58:11,580 --> 00:58:09,730 the website or click on our forum link 1336 00:58:14,370 --> 00:58:11,590 and jump over there and join the 1337 00:58:16,410 --> 00:58:14,380 conversation on our forum well i have 1338 00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:16,420 several interesting shows coming up 1339 00:58:21,150 --> 00:58:18,610 there kind of stacking up again so i'm 1340 00:58:23,550 --> 00:58:21,160 probably going to be on on every week 1341 00:58:26,460 --> 00:58:23,560 schedule for a little while i hope you 1342 00:58:27,870 --> 00:58:26,470 can keep up but i just can't stop doing 1343 00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:27,880 these interviews there's so many 1344 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:30,250 interesting people to talk to so please 1345 00:58:35,010 --> 00:58:32,530 fire up that ipod and while you're at it 1346 00:58:36,990 --> 00:58:35,020 fire off an email to your friend or 1347 00:58:39,660 --> 00:58:37,000 write a blog and tell as many people as 1348 00:58:41,220 --> 00:58:39,670 you can share the word about skeptic oh 1349 00:58:43,590 --> 00:58:41,230 so we can continue to grow this 1350 00:58:46,290 --> 00:58:43,600 community and expand the conversation as 1351 00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:46,300 far as we can okay that's going to do it